Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. So my guest today is going to help us solve one of the biggest problems in consulting, and that is while you're building and practicing your business, how do you actually maintain a sense of well-being so that you cannot just sustain your business over time, but you can actually enjoy your life while you're doing it.

And so I'm going to talk to Karin Lubin, who is the head of Quantum Leap Coaching and Consulting, a consultancy that specializes in helping individuals and business leaders figure out how to have the life and business they want and that is built on purpose, passion, and authenticity and a foundation of regular self-care practices that are going to enable them and you build your business over time and to do it in a healthy way. So she gives very practical advice on how to do that and things that you can try until you find something that works for you. So let's get started.

I want to welcome my guest today, Karin Lubin. Karin, welcome to the show.

Karin Lubin: Thank you. Really happy to be here.

Deb Zahn: So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

Karin Lubin: I am a trainer, coach, and speaker, and I focus on helping successful people who have been really successful in life and in work find what it is that has been missing from giving them a real sense of purpose. Maybe they have lost a sense of connection to their work, or maybe they've just have always walked around not really sure what's missing. So I help them with that. And I love this work and I have kind of three areas that I focus on. Can I share them with you?

Deb Zahn: Yeah. Feel free.

Karin Lubin: OK. So the three areas are passion, really connecting and igniting the inner fire of what is important to you, your priorities, and then self-care and self-love is another foundational piece. I believe we often are giving, giving, giving, and we forget to receive and receive and receive. Well, there's a dance there. And self-care is kind of an aspect or the action of self-love, right? And then the other piece is really helping build emotional and spiritual resiliency because I have this understanding now that we can be super successful in business and everything else can be falling apart. So if we actually have some foundational tools and ways in which we are connected to ourselves, we are then able to apply it to every aspect of life and work.

Deb Zahn: Wonderful. And this is why I wanted to have you on because this applies to people who are currently consultants. If you've been in business a long time, you probably need some of this. But it also, I think, applies to those people who are in a “regular job,” dreaming about the freedom and the life of a consultant. My experiences personally, and I've seen it other places, is if you don't get at the heart of why your current job may not be fulfilling or other areas of your life are a train wreck, you can easily replicate that as a consultant. And so I think this topic is so important for my audience to get a chance to hear about.

Karin Lubin: Absolutely, because think about it. Many of us as consultants are in the helping professions, right? I would just say it as a broad term. And the reality then is that often we don't get enough, and that's why I was talking about the giving and the receiving. There is this dance, this infinite energy that we have to give and receive. And I'm not saying the word take because that gives a connotation that we're taking from something. The reality is you're actually receiving it to fill yourself up so that you can then give again. Either as a consultant, as a therapist, as a coach, as anyone who is doing work with anyone in the...being an educator and whatever, and whomever you are, manager…it is really important to really consider carefully what it is that you need and this changes. And that's why I work with people who are successful, who are missing something because something has shifted, and they haven't kind of caught up with themselves.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And because we're still in the midst of COVID and all of the issues related to that in the uncertainty, a lot of folks are struggling. So when you talk with either your clients or other coaches and folks that you know, what is it you see that they're struggling with related to that, but maybe is a little more intensified right now?

Karin Lubin:  Oh, wow. I see a lot of low-level depression.

Deb Zahn: Yep.

Karin Lubin: I see a lot of people who are struggling to feel energized and excited. I won't say hopelessness, but there's kind of this underlying current of depletion. People are not really sure. A sense of the unknown is really big for all of us right now. And some of us are more flexible or fluid in being able to handle the unknown while others really need a black and white, very structured and want to be in control. So when you and I are not in control, it can feel super uncomfortable.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Karin Lubin: So that's a lot of who and what I'm hearing. People are saying this in so many different ways.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. I've been getting lots of emails and texts from fellow consultants saying, "Are you having a hard time focus? I can't seem to focus on anything." or "I'm not sleeping at night or just general levels of high anxiety." And what's interesting that I've seen, and I've also experienced is, one of the things, and we'll talk about later, you have this great journal guide tool that folks could use and it listed a whole bunch of emotions. And I thought, there are some times where I could circle five or six of those, and I'm experiencing those all at once, which is not typical. That seems to be something that's very specific to the time that we're in. I actually referred to it at a different session as emotional multitasking, where it's like, oh, there's depression plus anxiety plus this… And I think that's what makes the self-love and the self-care so much more important now than. And I think it's always important but more important even now than it has been before.

Karin Lubin: Yeah. It's very much in our face. Let's put it that way.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. Exactly. So if you ever didn't know it was a problem, hopefully now you know that it is. What do you think the most important thing for consultants who are in that space that you're describing to focus on, to activate some of their self-love and be willing to take actions towards self-care?

Karin Lubin: That's a wonderful question. There are many tools and many things. So if people are comfortable with doing meditation, I would suggest doing a daily meditation. Just helps to kind of clear the mind and you kind of focus on your breathing. And I think that can be a very important tool. There are the whole term mindfulness and mindful practice and it's about really getting in the present moment, because if you follow your breath or you follow a statement that you're saying in your mind, or you're just listening to some beautiful music that you're playing, that can all help all those, the chattering in your head to slowly dissipate or it will be like a cloud coming through and then leaving those little chattering things.

Another thing is if you're not interested or like to meditate, then guess what? We all breathe, and breathing is a great thing. So if you notice that you're tense and your body is such a great indicator of when you're feeling tight, like your neck, your shoulders, things are all crunched up, your back hurts. All of these things are indicators that something is a little bit off and you need to check in. And so when you do that, one of the ways that I like to do that and you're noticing, and there's a whole process called nature's guidance system that I use that was actually created by Jenna and Chris Attwood who are some of my mentors. And the beginning piece of this to notice, and then breathe. So you notice something's going on, and then you take three deep breaths. And so you breathe in with your nose and you breathe out with your mouth and you do that three times. And so you're breathing in through your nose and out through your mouth, and then you do it one more time and ah, and by that third breath, you're a little more relaxed.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. And that's a good one because even if you're like, "Oh, I'm too busy to meditate." Which, no. You probably could do a little less social media and a little more meditating. That's been my trick, but something like that is something that you could pick up at any moment, you could pick up while you're on a Zoom call, if you're feeling suddenly tense and feeling some difficult emotions.

Karin Lubin: Yeah. I mean, we really need to think about breath as a beautiful opportunity to allow us to inhale all the goodness that we need and exhale everything that we don't need. And we can then just soften. Because there is a softening that happens and we become more coherent with our environment and with ourselves. And I think that again, the body is going to always give us such indicators that we constantly, at least I'll talk for myself. I used to constantly ignore.

Deb Zahn: Yup.

Karin Lubin: So now I'm kind of on the other side now where I really try to very carefully notice like, "Oh, ooh, my neck is a little out, Like what's going on? Maybe it was my pillow, and I slept weird. Or maybe it's really, I am tense." And let's breathe or let's do some journaling or let's...Another thing you can do is listen to music that calms you, that relaxes you, that makes you feel good. Maybe it's about uplifting yourself.

Deb Zahn: Right. Yeah. These are wonderful. Yeah. I noticed mine is my shoulders will be up and tense. I don't know how long they've been that way, but they're starting to ache. If I do the breaths, as you're describing or I do interventions, which I think is really the key of what we're talking about, which is attention and intervention.

Karin Lubin: That's right.

Deb Zahn: Then I suddenly feel my shoulders go back down to their normal position, but they could have been like that for hours and I didn't know it.

Karin Lubin: Yeah, no, it's so true. And I mean I could go on...There's HeartMath. You might've heard of HeartMath and it's an organization that looks at the heart and how the heart is almost...Well, they say it's smarter than the brain. It actually can process information faster than the brain. And so we actually can do exercises with our heart and actually breathe into our heart as another way to kind of give our whole physiology, our whole body and mind and everything about us like a new recognition of that we're breathing in from in our heart. And then we actually can bring an image to something that makes us really happy and breathe that and feel that in our hearts.

Deb Zahn: Nice.

Karin Lubin: So you're breathing in...just first breathing as...So you're breathing, right? You're just breathing in from your nose and out your mouth. Then you bring it to your heart. And when you bring it into your heart, imagine that your heart is actually doing the breathing, right. So when you breathe in and out, it's like going in and out through your heart. And then the next piece is to actually imagine a beautiful experience you've had, like someone you love or some animal that you just adore or some child or whatever it is it gives you great joy. Just imagine that. And they'll probably be a little smile on your face, and then you're bringing that into your heart. And again, the whole body is just softening.

Deb Zahn: That's right. That's lovely. And what's interesting is these practices when I...So when I first decided to become an entrepreneur and I thought, "Well, let me go look at what other entrepreneurs have done to be successful." Same way. I think if you want to be a consultant, look at what successful consultants have done. And one of the things that I found universally across all of them was meditation. That basically what I say, “Get your baseline right.” Which it was meditation, journaling, good food, exercise, and good sleep. Like those five things. And I think interventions like this, so meditation is not just one thing. You can do lots of different versions. Journaling was one that came up repeatedly. I was actually just watching the Tim Ferriss Show, and he had the guy that started TOMS shoes. He journals every single day and sometimes twice a day. And he says, that is the foundation of his success.

So I want to dig into that because I do it and I have found it...I've done it since I was 15. So I have found it enormously helpful. Describe a little bit what journaling is and how you think it can help consultants get that space for themselves to help themselves feel better.

Karin Lubin: Right. So the journal...I mean, so there's the overall sense of journaling where it's...There are so many ways that one can journal, you can journal in a blank book and just write, and then there are the more guided journals, which is what I've created that helps people to be more self-reflective and highlight certain positive intentions that they want for the day and then creating a list. So the most important thing to know about journaling is that when you put whatever you're thinking out on paper, you then have a little more distance so that you can actually reflect on it. Then you see that it's not necessarily you, it's this thought. And when you can begin to separate that, then there's some real healing that can occur.

And as also, we often talk about, you have to have clarity to be able to make decisions. Well, you can't have clarity unless you actually think it through or write it down and, for a lot of us, it helps. I'm very visual. So writing it down is really helpful. And then when you've done that, then you're able to say, "OK, this is actually so important. I've written it down." And I think that's a big piece of having the success that you want because now you have either a list of things that you want to do. You have things that are really important that you're saying this keeps going through my mind so I'm going to release this. I don't know what this is. Keep going until you find out what that is.

In the journal that I've created. I kind of focus it on more nature-based understandings. So I have two different series of journals, Deb I don't know if you know that. I have one that's seasonally based. I help people to focus on the season that they're in, and I tie a theme to that season so that they can explore it more deeply. So for example, it’s Spring right now. The theme is prosperity and abundance. Why? Because if we look outside, we see all these plants and flowers and things are starting to sprout and grow, right? Summer then the theme is around relationships because what are we doing? Well, in the past…

Deb Zahn: Back in the day.

Karin Lubin: ...I don't know what to tell you. There's a pandemic, I don't know how we'll be doing this, but there was a concept that we would be traveling and spending time with family and friends and doing things that we haven't done. So there's a lot of self-relationship work, as well as relationships with your partner, families, friends. And then fall is about health and well-being. And again, the leaves are falling and we're starting to notice, OK, so what's been keeping us well and what do we want to release that's not serving us? So that when we go into the wintertime, which is really probably the most internal time for all humans, it's also the most internal time for the Mother Earth here. Everything kind of slows down. And that the theme for that is self-love.

So I have these ongoing themes and then there's another series for the internal family systems process and that's specifically for people who want to work with coaches or a therapist on the internal family systems, and that's a whole other thing, but that's very, very cool. So journaling is, I think most importantly, a way for you to understand and connect to yourself on a daily basis so you become present with what's happening for you. So that you're not caught up in the past because our mind seems to be very good at going into the past and into the future. And so the real joy of journaling is like, OK, what's happening right now?

Deb Zahn: That's right. And it also stops some of the squirreling like squirrel, squirrel, which is all the ways that we don't stay present. And what's interesting when I was thinking about in preparation for this, I was thinking about the relationship between journaling and consulting. So for consulting to be successful, you're going to constantly make decisions over and over again. It's not like you make a couple at the beginning and then you're good and now you just get out and you market and do things. You are constantly looking at things, reassessing, asking yourself sometimes difficult questions, figuring out how you want to do your business, figuring out how you get more balance in your life. Those will be constants. And journaling is a way, just like you said, to get it on a piece of paper, because now you can work with it. Now you can actually do something with it. Now what may have just felt like a massive feelings is now right there for, now you got something to work on.

Karin Lubin: That's right. And so as a consultant, I actually think...For me, I don't know Deb about you. I used to have Post-it Notes everywhere.

Deb Zahn: I love Post-it Notes.

Karin Lubin: Yeah. Well, I love them too, but I was constantly losing them. I had many, many journals and it was just crazy making for me. So this journal has helped me kind of bring everything together into one container which is really you, you're the container, and you're kind of integrating it all into one place. Now, if you love to write and want to do massive journaling, a lot of the consultants and the people that I work with who are my clients often don't have “the time.” They don't believe they have the time. So the reason I actually created two pages and it's called for busy people and deep thinkers with guided questions to kind of help move you along is because I'm assuming that most people will have 10 to 20 minutes at the most, at the most.

And I look at in our culture, we are often...we have been, at least this is my experience. So I don't want to say everyone else, but it's kind of what I've noticed is that we've been trained to be very left brained. And I as a little person, once upon a time, I am very right brained, very creative, very dreamy, very like ooh, I've got a lot of thoughts, all of that stuff. I learned that I needed to be very left brained in order to actually...In my past I was an educator, I was a teacher, I was an administrator, and I had to figure out certain left-brain things. But what happened is I kind of overdid it. I overdid it so much that I totally burned out after 23 years in education. And I had to completely get myself away from that because I was...I felt like if I didn't, I would have a massive health crisis-

Deb Zahn:  Right.

Karin Lubin:  ...and that was at age 40.

Deb Zahn:  Wow.

Karin Lubin: So I knew I needed to make some changes. That was probably one of the hardest decisions. I mean, when you go through burnout and I bet all of you who are listening can imagine someone, whether it's yourself or someone you know who's gone through burnout. It is not pretty.

Deb Zahn: It's not. I'll actually say something funny about what burnout looks for me. And my colleagues will laugh at me because they know if I'm working too much or I've had...I'm an introvert…so if I've had too much interaction, I actually start to refer to myself in the third person. I will say, "Yeah, Deb can't have that conversation." And that's when they're like “Cry for help! Deb go chill out for a second." That's my version. Other people have other versions, but I just don't know any consultants who haven't experienced some version of that.

Karin Lubin: Right. And I think, again, going back to the ability to be productive and creative, you have to have some downtime. You have to have a moment in which you kind of check in with yourself, whether you call it a retreat, whether you call it your journaling, whether you call it a weekend or a day off or two hours, whatever it is, exercise is a great way to allow the creative to move through. But one of the things I wanted to say, Deb, is that what I've noticed around journaling and any of...The coaching that I do, it helps people to find sustainability in their life. That means that they have the energy to continue to be sustainable because what I didn't have is I didn't have sustainability when I burned out, I was completely dried up and like a walking zombie.

And the other thing was, if we want to have business success, there has to be some downtime so that you have that creative splurge and urge to create. Because only way that I know as an entrepreneur to continue to be a successful entrepreneur is to have some of that creative ideas and thoughts, and then be able to put them in action.

Deb Zahn: That's right. Or show up to your clients and say as I have done, I had a lunch with one of my clients and I said, "OK, I got three wacky ideas." And she's like, "Let's hear them." And one of them we really liked, and we acted on. And that only happens if you give yourself downtime to be creative and just let your mind float and find its own creative place it wants to be.

Karin Lubin: That's right. And then the last piece is that it also helps relationships because if you...Let's just go back to journaling for a moment, if you are not checking in with yourself, and I love how, at the very beginning of this interview, you were talking about feelings that you're noticing that you have more than one feeling that is actually very common. It's actually not just pandemic time. It's actually all the time. We have many feelings. If we unravel or reveal like, oh yeah, there's all these different feelings that can come along. And when you can actually explore, “Why am I feeling that? What's going on? What actually triggered this and then what might I need to do in order to take care of this?” Those are the questions that are being asked of you in the journal, but it also then helps you to be more clear with the people around you, whether they're your clients, whether they're your partners, whether they're your colleagues, whomever, and family members. Wow. It has made such a difference for people. I just had someone share with me yesterday and I wanted to see if I can find it. She said something like, the more I use the journal, the more I love it.

Deb Zahn: Oh nice.

Karin Lubin: And what I got from that is she hadn't been journaling or she had journaled some, but the idea of this particular kind of journal is to do it daily. And I know that can get scary for people. It grounds you, it helps you to stay present with yourself, and then you're able to have a lot more bandwidth, space, ability to listen well to your clients, as well as to your family members. It's really good. It's very helpful.

Deb Zahn: I've also found it helpful to go back. Actually one of the reasons I became a consultant is I went back to pass journals because I would every single year do sort of assessment of different aspects of my life and ask myself questions about it. And I kept seeing the same two words. Anytime I talked about my work life, the same two words kept coming up, which were autonomy and freedom. And I would say quite a bit about wanting to essentially be master of my fate and have freedom in my life to make choices. And that kept coming up over and over again. And then I kept going to work at places where I didn't have it. And even when I worked at the best possible version of a non-consulting job, it didn't do it because those two things kept showing up. And I mean, kept showing up year after year until I finally looked at it and said, "What's a job that does that?" Obviously, that meant it matters to me. What's a job that does that? And obviously consulting is one job that can do that.

Karin Lubin: Yes.

Deb Zahn: That's I think also utility of journaling is it also lets you look for patterns in your life.

Karin Lubin: Absolutely. And the other thing about journaling and at least with the nature-based journaling that I'm suggesting people do, which I think is actually even more important now with this pandemic where we're sheltering in place to be able to be outside and to connect to something larger because there's this...I want to say there's a desire, at least on my part to connect to something larger so that I can have maybe an understanding, even a tiny bit of an understanding of what's going on. And so when I can let it go and let nature, and so nature becomes kind of my metaphor for something bigger than me. And it could be God, it could be divine intelligence, it could be whatever we want to call it. And yet that's what if we can tap into that, that also can relieve a lot of stress.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. I like it too because one thing that I've seen folks experiencing during this time is sort of timelessness. I get the question constantly. “What day is this? Is this...Wait, it's Thursday? Yeah.” So what I like about the seasons is it sort of grounds you in time because right now there is so much uncertainty. We don't know when things are going to change, what that change is going to look like. We don't know the timeframes, and that's a lot of uncertainty for folks to deal with all at once. So I like the idea of having the seasons because it grounds you in timeframes.

Karin Lubin: Right.

Deb Zahn: And I think that's helpful for folks right now.

Karin Lubin: Right. And I just want to say that we don't talk about this a lot. However, I think we must begin to talk about grieving. I know this is kind of like maybe a sidebar, but it's not because when we're going through this pandemic, there is a lot of grieving going on. Even if we don't, because we're grieving for what was, what we used to have, there's a little energetic thing going on where we're grieving because we can't reach out and touch a lot of people. We're grieving because what used to be our job is no longer there or it's different or we don't go out or the people that we love, we're scared. And so there's a lot of grieving for what was and a lot of grieving for what is to come. Because again, when we don't know, there's that element of, wow, I'm not sure. I'm not...I'm not saying fear, although fear can bring in, but there's anger.

There are actually six stages of grieving. And there's a great book by David Kessler and it's called Finding Meaning. And I would highly recommend this book during this time because as a consultant, as anybody on the planet, I think we need to address and journaling is a great way to figure out, "Wow. Here we are. I'm pissed off. Like what's going? I don't like what's happening." Or, "I'm sad and it's all...So sad, what's happening?" Then there's the acceptance piece and there's denial like, "Oh yeah two weeks, it's all going to be right back the way it used to be."

Deb Zahn: Yeah. Denial's a fan favorite.

Karin Lubin: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then there's the acceptance piece of, "OK, so this is what's going on. I get it." So it doesn't have to actually be about someone passing away. It could be. And there's so...The planet is going through all these shifts and changes and countries are going through and our own world, in our world is going through these. And then the last one is finding meaning. So after you have kind of gone through these other stages, then there's this place of, so what's the gift out of all of this? And I think, as a consultant, that's something we have to be also looking at for ourselves again, to find the passion and the connection and the re-ignition of energy for ourselves. But also that's the question we want to be asking everyone, what's the gift in what's happening right now? But we have to allow ourselves to go through all these other feelings and that's why in the journal, there's a long list of feelings and I've been-

Deb Zahn: I saw those.

Karin Lubin: Yeah. And I'm actually increasing that page and enhancing the words. For the fall, I'm going to do a whole new kind of upgrade, I would say and I really added a lot more words because I have found that's important.

Deb Zahn: Oh yeah. And feelings can be very specific. And I like what you're saying with grief because again, this is why a journal or some other practice is helpful to guide yourself through that deliberately, as opposed to feeling moments of grief and stuffing it down with sourdough bread or…

Karin Lubin: Cookies and cake.

Deb Zahn: ...cookies or binge-watching. All of the things we do to stuff. But to deliberately go through it so it doesn't get in your way of having the life that you want. And it can be used to actually help you build the life you want.

Karin Lubin: Right. I think it's also important to know that sometimes to do a little binge-watching or to do special, sweet thing, it's like, yeah, it's OK. Yeah. Like, hey it's OK. I did it now. Now let's move on. Like, "OK, I see what's going on." Like you pay...You're starting to become aware of, "Oh, a little self-reflection. Ah, I was going through a little bit of denial. Mm-hmm. OK." And then you can make some choices as to what you want to do next. I think embracing all of us is also really helpful. And I'm definitely someone who wants to get into the juicy aspects of what's going on with a person. Not everyone wants to do that, but even having a small little connection to what is going on will be kind of a relief.

Because right now I say that the entire globe kind of half griefs, we don't actually fully grief. And if we actually allowed ourselves to just feel whatever emotion we're feeling from intense sadness to incredible happiness, it shifts. It always moves. It doesn't stay in one place, but we often think, "Oh, I can't handle that." Right. And that's when we stop ourselves. And so if we just move through that, we would say, "Oh wow, that just took minutes rather than years."

Deb Zahn: Right.

Karin Lubin: Right. Because we don't want to go there.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And it didn't take a whole pint of Haagen-Dazs. Just really was a few minutes folks. So let me ask you this last question that obviously is related to everything we're talking about, but for you personally, how are you finding ways to bring balance to your life? However you define that.

Karin Lubin: That's a great question. So in the journal, there are five aspects of well-being and this is kind of a diagram and kind of an overall perspective on how am I doing? And so I'm talking about physical well-being. I'm talking about career and financial well-being. I'm looking at the spiritual well-being of a person, the educational and wanting to grow and take in information. And then there's the relational. And when you are missing one of those things, so when I am feeling off balance, like feel it now. Now I happen to be very into the Passion Test process, which is a tool to help you get clear about what is most important to you. So that's why it's actually very foundational in my coaching. And I'm actually the director of the Passion Test programs, which is a worldwide thing. So I kind of live it, breathe it.

And one of those things that I've noticed is now I really can feel when I'm off, when I'm not doing something enough or I've ignored it, I can feel it in my body. I feel kind of agitated, kind of maybe a little lethargic, maybe not so excited, not so happy. Like all these things very quickly. And so then I check in as to, well, what is it that I'm not doing? And what I'm finding right now is that it's become more prevalent for me to focus on what is really inspiring me because that's...When I connect to something that inspires me. I'll give you an example, in the beginning of...or at the end of March, whenever it was the middle of March, when we started in sheltering in place, I am very much into exercise and staying healthy and strong. That's actually one of my passions. And what I found is that I was just kind of sitting around, I didn't know what...I was like, I can't go to the gym. And I was walking and doing some things, but I realized needed to hold myself accountable. So I just did a neighborhood call to exercise and I invited my entire neighborhood and all my friends. And I said, "Just join me on Zoom." And I found myself very energized by getting a group of people together, to stay healthy and strong.

Deb Zahn: Nice.

Karin Lubin: And I'm still doing it.

Deb Zahn: Wow.

Karin Lubin: 10 weeks later.

Deb Zahn: That's fantastic. Talk about creativity in times of stress and uncertainty. I love that.

Karin Lubin That's right. And I'm not a personal trainer and yet I am finding, I love the experience of bringing community people together. I'm planning that I'm staying... I am actually stronger, Deb…

Deb Zahn: Wow.

Karin Lubin: ...and healthier. And that's what I hear from all...I mean, there are about 10 people that join me every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And it's amazing. Everyone's telling me that they can hike longer, they can go out there and do more things. I'm just like, that's incredible. So that is what I'm talking about. When you connect to something that inspires you, follow it. It's probably more important than ever to do that during this pandemic time. Right?

Deb Zahn: Absolutely. So I have to say that's a perfect high note to end this podcast. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. I think that anybody who's out there, which I think is everybody who's feeling something, or even if you're not sure. Pick up a pen, pick up a journal, look into what type of meditation works for you. There are all kinds of different ways. Find something that works.

Karin Lubin: I love that. Thank you, Deb. Thanks for all that you're doing and bringing such inspiration to your colleagues and consultants and entrepreneurs around the world. Thank you.

Deb Zahn: Thank you.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoy this episode, or you've enjoyed any of my other ones hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content. I don't want you to miss anything, but the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one, is if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those. And then the last thing is, again, if you've gotten something out of this, share it, share it with somebody you know who's a consultant, or thinking about being a consultant and make sure that they also have access to all this great content and all the other great content that's going to be coming up.

So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.