Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. And, speaking of podcasts, that's where we're going to talk about today. If you really want to blow up your consulting business and get more clients, if you really want to put yourself, your personal brand, and your consulting business on a trajectory towards growth, podcasts are one of the tools that you should use to do that. That's both potentially having your own podcast and/or being on other people's podcasts. And so I brought on an expert in this, Kasey Jones. Kasey is joining me today and she is the founder of Our Galaxy where she's a thought leadership coach.

So she works with consultants and other founders on essentially what their strategy is in order to grow their business. And we're going to get into the nitty gritty details of exactly how you can leverage being on or having your own podcast to build your business over time. How to actually do it. How to approach it. What you need to get over to be able to do it well. So much fantastic information packed into this. You are going to become a podcast convert by the end of it. You're going to love it. So let's get started.

I want to welcome to the show today Kasey Jones. Kasey, welcome.

Kasey Jones: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Deb Zahn: So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

Kasey Jones: So I am a thought leadership and growth coach for founders. Entrepreneurs of all kinds, mostly B2B. So actually, let's be honest, all B2B. A lot of consultants and B2B services of different types and then also some tech founders. And what I really help them with is their growth strategy.

And when you are a founder, I think a really key part and something that a lot of really, really smart people struggle with is figuring out that connection to your personal brand. How do you put yourself out there? How do you tell your story in a way that grows your business, that builds trust in your industry, and gets you to the point where people are coming to you and you're not having to kind of hunt down business? And don't get me wrong, referrals are sort of everything on the B2B side and especially services and consulting. But those only get you so far and those aren't always the most reliable.

So we work on all the other stuff and creating the systems that make attracting those clients easier. And one big aspect of the way that we do that is working with founders on how they leverage podcasts.

So either starting their own and/or we love, love, love helping people pitch themselves to podcasts. Land those podcast interviews, prep for them in a way that helps them nail them, but also helps them know how to talk about what they do in a way that's going to get the right attention. And then once you've done the interview, what is all the promotion? What are all the different ways you can use that content or your participation in that podcast? Both the relationship with the podcast host and the content itself to grow your business?

Deb Zahn: Well, we're going to unpack all of that because you basically hit all the highlights of the questions that I want to ask you, which is great. So let's start now. Obviously, I have a podcast. I love podcasts. I understand the power of them and have seen the responses that I get from doing my podcast, which has kind of blown my mind. But I didn't know about it when I first started consulting. So say a little bit about what the power of podcasts are for consultants. Like what does it actually do to help them get clients and grow their business?

Kasey Jones: There's a couple of things. Obviously, the stuff that is going to be a little bit more sort of easy to understand is you're creating great content that you can use in all of these different ways. People are going to hear your podcast and they're going to build some trust with you. I think something that I love about podcasts is like, look, we are not in the same place. We've never met in person and anybody listening they're not hanging out with us. But they feel like they are. We feel like we are. So there's an intimacy there where...What I found it's fascinating is people build a much more intimate, close relationship with you without meeting you just by listening to your podcast. So I think that's a big part.

Deb Zahn: And actually let's pause there because the intimacy part is actually really important. I think a lot of consultants don't necessarily know that. So developing relationships because everything in consulting is truly based on relationships. Like that's primary. It's at the heart of everything. And so say a little bit more about why intimacy is so important in building a business or the feeling of intimacy.

Kasey Jones: So I'm going to say something that every consultant really needs to hear. Every business owner hates to hear. What you actually do is not unique. There are a bunch of other consultants. There are a bunch of other founders that probably do about the same thing.

So the reason why somebody comes to you and why it works is because of you. It's because the way you say a thing really resonates with them. Or there's something about your background or your perspective, or they're like, they understand me. They get me. So you don't get that going to a website. I mean, sometimes you do a little bit. If you've got a bomb-ass website. You've got an amazing copywriter. And you're really good at putting it succinctly and something that grabs attention. But most of us as consultants, especially when we're still small, our websites are kind of boring.

So there's something about feeling you really are getting to know someone that really builds trust. And that's the big thing about consulting also is like, yeah, you might be far enough along where you've got some great customer stories. That'll only get you so far. Even when they are really good. Trust is the biggest kind of barrier to you closing that client in my opinion. Because what's the big thing that's at stake. Or what's the big reason why someone might not go with you? It's risk. It's they don't know that you're going to be able to do what you say you're going to do. They don't know if it's going to work out. And if they trust you in a much more personal way, they're going to be more excited about working together and less nervous about signing on the dotted line and moving forward.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And the more you build the trust and the intimacy, they also become your best marketer. So I just had a long-term client of mine on her way back from Niagara Falls. She stopped at my house for Kailyn pumpkins because I garden and it was a 10, 15-minute visit. Howdy, haven't seen each other, we're socially distanced like your mask. And she tells everybody about me. She talks more about me than my mom does.

Kasey Jones: I mean, that's amazing. I love those stories. And this brings me to the other part of podcasts that I think people really don't get until you really start doing it. You build amazing relationships with your guests. I mean, it's the start of a real relationship.

And I mean, let's be honest. On podcast interviews we're able to ask these pretty personal, pretty pointed questions. We often get to some pretty real stuff. And the people that we interview, they can become great referral partners for us. They can become potential clients. They can become more of the mouths that are spreading the word of mouth, right? They can be these allies for you. And I think the other thing about that is entrepreneurship of any sort. And I think consulting sometimes, especially it's really lonely. There's something about having a podcast that helps you build these relationships that then make you less lonely.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. And especially now, right? We all could use that. I'd add the other thing is I've had now so many consultants on my show. I learn things almost every single time. So I remember after one podcast I did with Andrea Fabbri, who I know well. He does branding, which is not what I do. And I completely changed how I was going to do something with a client because of something he said, and I thought that's a much better way to do that.

Kasey Jones: That's amazing. Yeah. We get better by learning from one another and connecting with one another. And I think that's the other thing, it's like something that makes consultants particularly good is you have to be somebody that is constantly trying to improve and constantly trying to learn.

You see some words like they're delivering the same kind of playbook to everybody for the last decade. And it's like, if you've got a powerhouse of a brand, you might be able to afford doing that. But for the rest of us we can't. We've got to be staying on top of how things are evolving and how things are changing. And so there's something...And great, I'm sure all of us read a ridiculous amount of books and articles and all these other things and we learn in all these different ways. But man, nothing beats talking with someone and hearing from their experience and capturing those nuggets of wisdom that just changed something in an instant for you. It's so satisfying.

Deb Zahn: And in a way that feels like a friend is helping you out.

Kasey Jones: Yeah.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. So that's a really good sell for podcasts. So you hit a lot of the highlights, all of which I agree with. Now, I know and you hinted at this in how you started is starting a podcast or being on podcasts that's not magic. If you really do serve a business goal, you have to have a strategy that you then execute on and you measure and all of that good stuff. So what's the right way that you suggest consultants would go about that.

Kasey Jones: So we're big believers, if you're thinking about starting your own podcast, start with going on a bunch. Because you'll get a sense pretty quickly of the different styles and approaches. The things that worked well as a guest. The things that got you excited for the conversation. You'll start to figure out like, "Oh God, I did an interview that was an hour and 15 minutes. And I was like dead by the end." Or, "I really loved the short tactical ones." You start to figure out what's your style and what's kind of going to resonate with you.

You also get to practice how do you talk about what you do? And that's invaluable no matter what. And you're talking to another person who's kind of an expert, so you can watch on their face when you're like, "Oh, hey, here's what I do." Do they seem bored? Or they struggle to find a follow up question or are they really engaged and excited? So you can kind of test your messaging and those kinds of things. And I think you can figure out then isn't a podcast thing really for me. Because I think it's like the average number of episodes that a podcast houses is seven because people quit after that.

Deb Zahn: That's sad.

Kasey Jones: I know. So you want to make sure that it's really something you want to do. But the other thing I think associated with that is, and frankly most consultants are, I'm a big systems and process person.

Deb Zahn: Oh yes.

Kasey Jones: Yeah. I already know you are.

Deb Zahn: Oh yes, yes, yes.

Kasey Jones: And when you have, you want to really spend some time thinking through your system and your process of your podcast. The stuff that makes it easy for you to do it because otherwise it's going to be insanely time consuming and you're going to get really burnt out really quickly.

But also you're going to make it really laborious for your guests. And I've had multiple times where I'm like either I've reached out to pitch myself to a podcast or someone who's reached out to invite me on theirs. And their process requires 12 back and forth emails. And everything is all over the place and there's no one place I can go to understand what I need to do. What is the plan? Those kinds of things. So it's like that's the other reason why I suggest going on some because you'll learn really quickly, what is a good guest experience and what is not.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And you'll improve it over time. So hopefully you were happy that I had a landing page.

Kasey Jones: Oh yeah. I know you're fabulous.

Deb Zahn: Thank you. And ways to sign things electronically. I did not do that at the beginning. I did the way that you described, but then as I've been on other people's podcasts, I've noticed, oh, that's interesting. In their scheduling system, they ask pre-questions. Boom I love it, let me start to enact that. But I love the idea of...Because here's the deal. I know that podcasts are a lot of work and you have to know that you're doing it for strategic business reason. That you understand what the work is and you understand that you have to systematize it to make it easier or get support. I've a virtual assistant who does a bunch of it for me.

Kasey Jones: Yes. That's key.

Deb Zahn: Oh yes. That was life changing.

Kasey Jones: Yeah. And also developing the process, then you have something you can hand off to someone else. If you don't have a real process or system, you can't teach anyone else to do it for you.

Deb Zahn: That's right. That's right. And the other thing I would say is, I mean, one motto in my business when I'm consulting or when I'm helping consultants is I should only be doing what only I can do. And when I was doing everything except at any of my podcasts, that was not true. And then guess what I wasn't doing. I wasn't building my business. Why? Because I was doing things that I'm one, not best suited to do and two, I don't need to do.

Kasey Jones: Yes. And I think we all fall into that trap, learning. And by the way, we're puppy sitting and there's a puppy scratching at the door so that's what that sound is.

Deb Zahn: This is perfect. You have puppies, I have kittens. It's a perfect marriage of the two worlds. Dog and cat people.

Kasey Jones: Oh yes. The art of delegation. It's a thing I have to learn and relearn over and over again. And I'm way better than I used to be. We haven't done that see, to take on way too much. The other thing that I think is really important when getting started is with the strategy. Yes, knowing that you want to do it, I think are absolutely critical.

But the other area where I see people skip over is actually really knowing what problem are they trying to solve here? So what I do, so my team and I we kind of stole this process from a book about startup marketing and I love doing this. So it's basically our approach to how you create a competition-free content strategy. And so what we really recommend doing is taking a look at, OK, what are the like 10 or 15 podcasts in your space that you look up to, that you think are pretty good. Or maybe you think are kind of crappy, but are successful.

And you want to look at those and listen to a few episodes of each and get a better understanding of what do they all have in common. And then what is one angle? What is something that you feel is missing that you can uniquely provide? So finding, if you can really understand I want to be the person that comes at it from this angle or deliver content in this style or strategy. Or has this kind of guest. Those kinds of things you want to find the gap, and then you want to create your own strategy to fill that. And when you approach it that way, figuring out what guests to have. Planning your content. It's much, much easier.

Deb Zahn: That's right. Well, it's no different than actually determining your market and niche in consulting.

Kasey Jones: Exactly.

Deb Zahn: And so take that same process, which I hope everybody did and apply that now to how you're going to build out this particular type of content for a particular purpose. For a particular audience.

Kasey Jones: Yes. And I think the key really is like, podcasts are a lot of work and it's very personal. So you want it to be something that like, don't pick that angle or that gap in the content or in the market that you really don't give a damn about. Right. Find the one that whenever you're talking to people in your industry you're the one that's ranting about how nobody talks about this. Why does nobody talk about this? It's like we all have those.

Deb Zahn: That's right. But that's going to get you past the seventh episode.

Kasey Jones: Yes. Yes.

Deb Zahn: That's wonderful.

Kasey Jones: And I think that's the really big key is solving that problem for people. But also finding that passion for you. Because that's going to make it fun. And that energy is going to come across on the audio.

Deb Zahn: I know you also talk about branding in other aspects of what you do. And before I did a podcast, I thought very clearly about what my brand is. How I want to present. So I made choices like I'm PG-13, am I PG-13 in real life? No, no, I am not.

I would make Gary V. blush if I were honest. But that's not how I wanted to appear on my podcast. I'm still authentically myself, but that was a branding decision that I made. How do you suggest people approach it also from a branding perspective? So it isn't some weird jarring thing that you do on the side.

Kasey Jones: Yeah. That's a really good question. I think for me anything that's personal branding related. So the intersection between your business and who you are as just a human. It's always this balance between who you authentically are and whom you are trying to serve. And so you've got to understand, like, if your clients tend to be a little more old school, tend to be a little more conservative. Yeah. Dropping the F bomb on every single interview is probably not the best bet. Right. But if you are someone who...It's funny, I was talking to a coach who she's an absolute powerhouse of a coach. She's been doing it for like 40 years. Is super impressive. Has coached like C levels, fortune 100. I come from an Irish family. I talk like a sailor. She's like-

Deb Zahn: That's my kind of woman.

Kasey Jones: Yeah. I tried to kind of be different when I was younger. And she's like, I've reached this age where I just really don't. And I won't say what she said. She said, "I don't give a F." And so sometimes that's OK too if it's super part of your brand in a certain way, then own it. But I think it's knowing where there are those risks and knowing what's worth it. And what is it?

And I think again, I think this is probably going to be...I don't know. The listeners are going to get really tired of me saying this in this interview. It really comes down to, and I know we overuse the word authentic, but truly what is authentically you. What can you do on a regular basis and feel proud of yourself? Feel natural doing it. And also present the kind of image or tone that you want your clients and you want your audience to release to you.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And you can be yourself within that zone you've defined. Although I did have a few colleagues offer to pay to hear the other version. Well there is a business idea.

Kasey Jones: There you go. You can start your Patreon account and you can have the unfiltered.

Deb Zahn: Deb Unfiltered. I love it. So one other thing that you mentioned is, so let's say you have your own podcast or you're on someone's podcast that now becomes an asset that's content you now have. That's a beautiful thing. What do you do with it that's going to help you meet your business goals?

Kasey Jones: Yeah. So there's a bunch of things. And part of it is figuring out kind of what works for you and your business. I know it's always like it depends, but I think a big part of it is you can take that one piece of content and you can slice it up into a million different formats and use it in a bunch different ways.

So there might be, I don't know, a really juicy 92nd clip from the podcast episode where you're like, "Oh, we really dug into this one particular topic. I want to write a blog post going deeper into that element and include the video or the audio of it embedded in the blog post." You can then even do a shorter version and you put that on social media that then directs to the blog post. I mean, there's a bunch of different ways.

So I think the thing is just really figuring out all of the ways that you can kind of cut this up and get a ton of value out of it. And I think that's also where I see people miss the opportunity when it comes to interviews. They do them and they don't follow up. They don't use it in another way. And we forget that you've probably said some really smart things in that conversation. And you've added some credibility. Some trust by the fact that you are being interviewed by a thought leader in your space. And you can totally play that to your advantage.

Deb Zahn: I think this is part of marketing and positioning yourself within your market is you have to create content. So you're right. The website, that's great. Check that box. You want it to be good. You want it to be thoughtful. You want to be action oriented. But that's not all you have to do. But we have limited time because what we really want to do is spend our time generating revenue by doing work that's meaningful to us with clients. So the leveraging of content in multiple ways is also a huge time saver. And it lends itself to systemization. I think I might've made up that word. But how do you help people sort of figure out, all right I have this. Maybe I did a blog. Maybe I did a podcast. Now how do I get in the routine habit and have the systems that actually support turning it into a quote for Instagram? An article for LinkedIn. Things like that.

Kasey Jones: So again, I think it all comes down to process, right? So what I encourage people to do is think through what's the checklist that you can come up with for every single piece of content. Where it's, OK, we've got a blog post for that blog post. For that blog post we're going to add two images...And literally my team and I talked about this yesterday. For every single blog post we're going to have at least two images that have a quote from the blog post that's like in the blog, which then we can put that on social media and direct it back to the blog. We want to have a video for every blog post. We do a ton of video and I do a ton of video. And we want to make sure that if the video is a little bit longer in the blog post we have like a shorter clip that we can then put on social media and kind of direct that.

So you want to develop each thing. We're going to do these five, six, seven things. And then you can get an executive assistant or a virtual assistant who can do that for you. Where it's, "Hey, here's the blog post." You can either direct them to find two quotes or you're like, I want these two quotes made into different sized social media images. And then you kind of schedule those out. And I think the other thing that I really recommend is building the systems for your marketing. Especially your personal marketing. Your personal brand marketing. It's fascinating to me. I talk to founders all the time who...If you're an entrepreneur, you have learned how to do things that you never in your life thought you would ever have to learn how to do.

We have technical things. We have designed things. Like all sorts of stuff. Then what you do as an entrepreneur. However, what I have noticed is that there's a ton of entrepreneurs who don't apply that same, “Hey, I've got to solve this problem. I'm going to learn everything about it. I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to get pretty damn good at it” when it comes to their personal brand. Instead, they're like, “Oh, I'll just find the time to sometimes post on social.” And you're like, "No. It's so simple.”

Deb Zahn: No, you won't.

Kasey Jones: No, you won't. And so there's this like weird disconnect. So what I really recommend is approaching it like you would approach anything else in your business. Read some books. Learn some things. Take a course. Hire a coach or consultant for a period of time who can teach you what to do. So you can really nail it and build the systems that make it way easier for you to have a bigger impact doing it.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And less time spent that is essentially wasted. Yeah. So at the beginning, mine was all the haphazard way that you're talking about. And now we have Hootsuite, shout out to Hootsuite. We've got where we can pre-schedule everything. So I don't have to remember it every single day, which will never happen. We have pillar content that we turn into other content. We have it in our project management systems so that we know for every podcast episode here are the follow-up, social media things that relate to it. And then what that lets me do is get creative. So I was down hanging out with a bunch of kittens because I got a lot of them in the house right now.

And just don't tell my husband. Anyway. I was down there and I'm like holding little Mister Biscuit, a five-week-old kitten. I'm like, I think he wants to do an Instagram video with me right now. So that let me have fun with my personal brand because everything else was taken care of. So I got a chance to stop and be creative, which happens if you have the system behind you.

Kasey Jones: Yeah. And I think that's all so spot on. One of the other things that a lot of people don't realize is the benefit of scheduling things. One of the complaints or hesitations I hear about scheduling things as people will be like, “Well, I've heard you get better engagement if you don't schedule it. If you just post it natively.” And I'm like, “Yeah, I've heard that. But what would you get better engagement on the thing that you post or the thing you don't?” And then I was like, "Oh yeah. OK." But the other thing about it is a lot of the time, if you're saying that it's timing that is your reason for not doing this or that you just don't know what to say or all these other things. That's imposter syndrome and there is something about scheduling it that makes it easier.

So when you are like, let's say you're in LinkedIn and you write out a post and if you're one of those people that then looks at it and you're like, "Well, I'm not going to hit submit right now. I'm just going to leave it and I'll come back to it. I'm just not sure about it." And then you never post it. That's imposter syndrome because scheduling it is like one stage one step detached. It's way less intimidating to schedule it. And then you don't have to really think about when it's going to go live.

Deb Zahn: That's right. You're tricking imposter syndrome and saying, "Oh, don't worry. Don't worry. It's not posted." But the imposter syndrome I think is big because that's another reason that folks sometimes are a little frightened about podcasts. So I've certainly had guests who I know are just brilliant and have so much insight to share. And they've been nervous about getting on a podcast because what could I possibly say? And like I have so many questions for you because I'm so interested in how you approach things. Don't worry about it. And then they get on and we just start chatting and they end up displaying their own personal genius. Their magic. But if they hadn't gotten past the imposter syndrome, they wouldn't have let themselves

Kasey Jones: Oh yeah. I mean, imposter syndrome is a very, very real thing. And it's interesting in a lot of the work that I do. So I think there's a little bit of a myth that it affects women more than men. I think women are a little more aware that that's what it is. And a lot of the men that I talk to they're more likely to be like, "Oh no, it's just time management." And you're like, "No, it's not."

Deb Zahn: Is it?

Kasey Jones: And then it's like, you asked a couple more questions and it's like, no, there's this deep-seated fear of something. And so it happened absolutely everybody under the sun deals with it. And you just have to push yourself just a little bit. And what winds up happening is you go on that podcast interview that you're kind of terrified to do and you wind up having a great conversation and having a good time. And the next one gets so much easier. And so being willing to just push against that comfort zone, just the littlest bit, little baby steps doing it. And in no time, you'll be like, "Oh no, I want to start my own. And I want to do this."

Deb Zahn: That's right. It's addictive, it really is.

Kasey Jones: It is, in the swing of it.

Deb Zahn: What I also tell people and it's certainly what I've told myself is if I set my head in my heart right which is what I'm really trying to do is help people. Trying to reduce suffering. I'm trying to help people be more successful faster, and that's why I'm doing it. And I have business goals but my business goals are related to the same thing. It just gets easier because then just get on and be helpful.

Kasey Jones: OK. So I love that you said this. So one of the things, when I start working with founders that are like, “Oh I know I need to do this personal brand stuff and I just don't really want to do it.” And you'll always be like, "OK, so what's holding you back?" And they'll be like, "Well, I don't want to brag." And you're like, "OK, I get that." Think of the five, 10, 15 people whose social media accounts you really admire. People who you're like, "Oh God, I love that Twitter feed." Or, "I love the content they put on LinkedIn or Instagram."

And they'll be like, "OK." And I'll be like, "Do you have those people in mind?" "Oh yeah, totally." "How often do they brag?" "Oh, never." And I'll be like, "OK, so what do they do? What are they talking about?" And it's like, "Oh, well, they share stories from how they got to where they are." Or they talk about ideas that they're learning or they talk about problems that they faced and how they solved them. And I'd be like, "OK, it's not bragging. It's sharing." And when you think about it that way, it's not icky and it's way less intimidating. It's exactly what you're talking about. It's your desire to help someone else.

Deb Zahn: The puppy agrees, darn it.

Kasey Jones: If you were to desire to help someone else and yeah you might be helping yourself in the process, the stuff that's going to drive you forward and the stuff that's going to make the difference is you doing good in the world.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And helping yourself ultimately comes back to so that you can help more people.

Kasey Jones: Exactly.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. I'd love that. That is wonderful. Well, I have so many more questions I could ask you, but I always like to end with one question in particular. A personal question, which is life balance. However it is that you define it. How do you bring more balance to your life? Because that's something I know a lot of founders and professionals really struggle with.

Kasey Jones: Well, I'm not the best person to ask because I am kind of terrible at it.

Deb Zahn: Then you are the best person to ask.

Kasey Jones: So there are a few things that have really, really helped me. Again, systems and routines. I meditate every morning. I have a bunch of habits that are kind of health and mental health related that are critical for me. The other thing though that I think I've recognized over probably the last year. A couple of years ago and especially when I started as a consultant I was just coming out of a divorce and sort of rebuilding my life after my divorce. And for a while I felt almost guilty that so much of my life revolved around work. But I started to realize it probably about a year and a half ago. And then I had a pretty serious kind of health thing at the beginning of this summer. And the people that pulled out all the stops came to my aid were there for me in absolutely everything I needed. Took turns ordering groceries to be delivered to my house.

Like you name it, they did it. Those were my friends that I met through my work. They were people that I had mentored. People that I spoke at an event with. Women that I connected to on LinkedIn. I mean, these are all literally the people that I met through work did 10 times more than two of my oldest dearest friends in the entire world.

So I also want to just say that like, as an entrepreneur the lines are blurry and it's OK. There's something really beautiful about it. Yes, it means you still don't want to work all the time. But you can celebrate the beauty of the relationships that you're building through your work and you don't...I don't know. I needed to hear this. I don't know if anyone else does. You don't need to feel like it's a bad thing that most of your super close relationships come from the work that you do.

Deb Zahn: That's right. Because life balance shouldn't be a stick you beat yourself with if you don't do it right. Although I have to say, when you said I meditate every morning immediately I thought, well, she's one then. Because I have been unsuccessful with doing it every...I write in my journal every morning. But I have not been successful at forming that habit yet. But that's wonderful. But I think you're right. I mean, I met my husband through work. We talk about work. We are nerds about the things that we do.

He's been a consultant. I'm a consultant and it's fine. That's our life. We like it.

Kasey Jones: Yeah.

Deb Zahn: Wonderful. Well, Kasey, I have to tell you, you are filled with so much wisdom that this was enormously helpful. And I want to encourage everyone out there that whether it's a podcast or blog, whatever it is, use your voice. Build your personal brand. And don't let imposter syndrome get in your way because this is really a way to get what you want out of your business.

Kasey Jones: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll share some links with you. We have a free guide of how do you pitch yourself to podcasts and we're actually building out a mastermind kind of coaching group with a whole course on how do you pitch yourself? How do you prep for those interviews? How do you promote those interviews? And all of that also applies to how do you promote your own podcast in the mix so I'll share those with you.

Deb Zahn: And we'll put those in the show notes. And I love that you said preparation which is probably one of my favorite words on the planet. Because anytime I've been on another podcast or I do a podcast, preparation is a good chunk of it and that's the only way it goes well. So I think it's wonderful that you're going to have some resources for folks to figure out how to do that.

Kasey Jones: Awesome. Yeah.

Deb Zahn: Well, thank you Kasey so much.

Kasey Jones: Thank you, Deb. This was awesome.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything.

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So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.